EP 79: Teach like no one else to captivate your audience with Bryan Hull
When not seen ducking into a cafe in Penang, Malaysia or Paris, France, Bryan works with and loves his students in Portland, Oregon. He cares about global inequality, startling-fresh art and his ever-frustrating and rewarding year-round veggie garden.
Have you ever wanted to take a million classes with one of your favorite teachers? That's how I felt when I took a class with Bryan over 20 years ago. I took every class available from him and we have stayed in touch for over 2 decades thanks to the power of email lists!
It was such an honor to chat with him for this episode where he spills the beans about how to be a phenomenal guide for others! We get into how to innovate with your teaching techniques whether they are online or in-person. How can you restructure your group offerings to engage and help people to think in new ways? Bryan discusses his process of course creation. He shares that taking time to create your materials and allowing ideas to marinate creates more depth in your class offerings. We also get into pedagogy and how to be a better speaker and keep your audience captivated. I didn’t want this episode to end and you won't either! Hold onto your seats and grab a pen to take notes!
Bryan Hull on Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=do3ri77ags0
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Description text goesBryan
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Sara: Wow. Bryan Hull! I took classes with this wonderful human. Maybe that was 20 years ago. 20 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. And he was a life-changing teacher. So I was able to take some writing courses. I was also really lucky to go to Italy and study in Florence and study film as literature, which was so phenomenal.
I also got to take an Indian literature course, and I just, I love the way that you really push people to write in a way that's true for them. And I feel like you, you really encourage people to. Get into the depths of who they are and to be true to themselves and to express themselves with a little more [00:01:00] oomph and courage and bravery.
And I just, I love the way that you taught it was always different than other teachers. And so I'd love to get into a little bit of your practice because I'm just seeing more and more creatives, healers herbalists that are looking for various ways to share their work with the world and to connect.
And I'm finding, writing and teaching are two primary ways to do that. And teaching online is especially challenging. And so I feel like if anyone has figured out some little ways to make that more effective, You may be the one. , I'd love to know a little bit more about, let's just dive in where you at, where what's going on with you, Brian Hall.
Bryan: When you say teaching online, are you talking just soon or are you talking about [00:02:00] asynchronistic as well?
Sara: I think asynchronistic as well. Selfishly I'm starting to teach some classes that are going to be in-person and online happening simultaneously. And then I've also been in multiple courses that have kind of a balance of both of those things.
So I think,
I think both are applicable. That's all applicable.
Bryan: So I think. The first thing that I would have you or anyone do is think about the limitations and the strengths of whatever medium you're teaching in. And, you know, if you, I don't know how much news you listen to, but a lot of the news is about, oh God, like classroom teaching is where it's at.
And zoom T teaching over zoom is horrible. And I don't know. I think we forget the challenges that were [00:03:00] present in, in class, like brick and mortar teaching. And so it's just important to think about what does this medium give you and what are its challenges. And the other day I was thinking of all the irritating things that have.
When you're teaching face-to-face that I don't have to deal with over zoom. So for example, like the two students who, through the entire term, no matter what you say or do, they're going to chit chat while other people are talking the entire term and it drives you crazy. And that doesn't happen over zoom, you know, like people, don't, people don't have side conversations in zoom mostly.
I mean, you know and I was thinking of all the things I was like, oh, well, that doesn't happen. That doesn't happen. Like active shooter drills don't happen when you're on zoom. It's fantastic. You know, like I don't have to like get on the ground with my students, you know? So but I would, I think the biggest, the [00:04:00] biggest challenge about one of the biggest challenges about.
Zoom teaching is it's easy for students to do something else while they're supposedly engaging with you because you're at the computer. So you can, if it gets even a little bit boring, you can check your email or here's a ton of students who play computer games while they should be paying attention.
And, you know, so how do you, I think the mistake that people make in teaching zoom is it's not interactive enough. Like, you know, if I'm experienced that I'm a pretty interactive person face to face, but I think in zoom it's like super essential and there are a million different ways to be interactive with zoom other than breakout groups, which is kind of what people default to and you just have to, you have to.
Think about, [00:05:00] you know, since you're focused on creative people, they have to be very creative with the medium. And just like, you know, when we were doing face-to-face classes, I would think, okay, we're in one room. What can we do with this room to really push it to its limits? So once when you and I were doing the Indian lit class I remember I did this get on the bus where I had people do two rows and it was a bus.
And then their partner was the person across from them and I, and all, we moved all the chairs and we formed a bus. And that was to like, get out of rows and get out of the little cliques that had formed and get out of people's comfort zone by stretching the limits of the room. Right. So you have to do the same thing.
With zoom, like how can you push zoom and make it do things that it's, you can only, you have limitations. And I [00:06:00] think any artist knows how to work, the limitations of the genre you're in, you know, that's why sonnets are both difficult and, you know, exhilarating to work in because there's so many constraints, you know?
So for example I'm just gonna give you some examples of things you could do. I love it. So sometimes I have a student. Like I've picked partners for them. And I tell them what the partners are in the chat. And then I say, okay, we're not going to do breakout rooms. You're going to chat too with the person whose name you see.
So everyone's doing individual chats simultaneously while we're all in the same space. And it's just something different, you know? Something else I do is I, if you don't use the chat in a very conscious way, then people tend to take it over and do their own weird stuff in the chat. I don't know how many [00:07:00] things you've been over zoom, but people will like, I don't know, they do all this weird stuff.
Like they have to, they have to let people know that they're there. So they say, you know, there's all this stuff that is just. Fluff. And unlike I want the chat to be a place where people are learning. So I may say like, okay, do something and then put whatever you're doing, show me what you're doing in the chat.
And so they'll do they'll show a sentence. They are revising in the chat. And I can instantly tell by looking at the sentences, how many people have the concept down or not. So it becomes like a Blackboard in a weird way, you know, wipe the whiteboard and zoom is kind of awkward to work with, but the chat is you can still look at people while they're putting in their sentences.
So it's stuff like that. Do you know? But engaging the, the most important thing is just I think people like PowerPoints always. [00:08:00] Difficult, but doing there's so many people that just share the screen and then do their PowerPoint. And that's I think that's the killer right there because you're not engaging people.
So the concept, one of the things I wanted to talk to you about is like to think about what you like. Let's say that you, I don't know, tell me a course that you're thinking of teaching. What would, what would it be on?
Sara: Well, I'm teaching a course on digestive health, like nourishing your gut to improve your immunity and health.
And I'm teaching as a one-off class to see kind of how it goes, but as I'm working on it, I'm also realizing like, oh my God, I have 20 pages of notes already. And I've only just begun. Like, I, I think I want to do maybe develop it into like a longer course where I could work with people and they could kind of experiment with, trying out different things with their diet [00:09:00] and keeping like a food journal and just experimenting with their own bodies and their own diets and to have like a continuous Check-in and experiential learning and kind of engaging people and making it a little bit more interactive
Bryan: Yeah, your instincts are all good because the point I was going to make is what can you provide students that they can't get by just typing things in Google, but Google gives you his information, but what you just listed are a bunch of things that Google can't do.
Like you're, you're providing, like, there's no way that. Then I'm going to get to do a journal and then also go through that experience of doing a journal about what I eat with Google. It's impossible right now. No one cares. There's nothing, there's no human on the other side, you know, so, but if you'd [00:10:00] had that, I would immediately want to do that in your class because it's taking me through a process with you and then also with the group and that, and it's structured and it's moderated.
And you can kind of do some things like a little bit like that with Facebook, but you have to think about what Facebook can't do that you can provide. You know, so that's what I would say is I think some of the mistakes that I just went to this workshop, it was God awful. It was about querying the classroom.
So the title was, was pretty cool. Then, then the person. They were going over things that you could just so easily Google, like they're like, okay, so let's go through the alphabet of LGBTQ, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, and she, and it, wasn't just a quick thing. I was like, oh God, like we can figure this out on our own.
Like, it doesn't matter, you know, like I'm here with a bunch of [00:11:00] teachers and like, let's use us, you know, like what, what can we provide each other? And so that's, that's, I would say it's very important. And it sounds like you have thought it through enough to know what you can provide your students
Sara: a little bit.
Yeah. I mean, I think it also is.
It is a challenge because I think, you know, there's, so I have different impulses. Like I would love to have a class that people could just watch. That's prerecorded that it doesn't have to be live. I don't have to be there for, and then I also would love to have like group classes where it's more, it is more interactive and have that.
Bryan: But you can do both. And then in fact, I have classes that are both of those things, you know, with COVID, they're like, you have to be flexible with your students. And I'm like, okay, I'll have a [00:12:00] dual structured class. So if you can't make zoom, if you get COVID in your outer week, the, the curriculum is there.
Asynchronistic like, I have lectures that are recorded that you could watch. So there it's like, you could go this way or you could go this way. And you know, it's because I teach totally online that I can, I have all that material that I can put in the class, but you see how that's really useful, you know, so have material that is just asynchronistic and then have material that you would use for zoom and then mix it when appropriate.
You can still do the journal. But the dietary journal in a totally online class. Yeah. And people can post like, how's it going? Like, you know, I totally didn't pay attention to my journal this week or whatever, you know? Right.
Sara: Cool. Yeah. I like that. That's helpful I'm wondering too [00:13:00] how you think about structuring a class for a whole semester?
So I haven't talked to you much in the last couple of years, so I don't know if you know, like I got the chance to teach. I was teaching art classes. And I have stopped because I was getting paid, but it was very little, so it felt like volunteering, it felt like volunteering.
So I've kind of like put that on the back burner, but I do love teaching, but I just was curious how you structure, how you think about like a whole semester. So I'm kind of thinking of, I'm just wondering how you create like outlines for yourself for the semester. And then also for the day, like planning, how do you plan a class?
It gets overwhelming to me.
Bryan: Okay. So
now this is where it gets back to what you said at the intro. Your brain works in particular ways that are distinct to you, [00:14:00] and you need to honor how you create a class based on how you like to work and how you like to create. And it's not going to be the same. As me. So for example, I take a really long time.
I do it in bits and pieces say, ah, I just revise international studies class that I taught in the fall. And I spent, so the course was already there, but I was making a better. And I spent like a year and a half working on it a little bit. When I ever, I felt like it, I'm not a kind of person that likes to just sit for 12 hours and pull every, you know, like do a ton of work.
I, I can't do it now for a lot of reasons and it's not how I ever worked, you know, but some people do, I watch news. They get coffee, they get food, they just sit there and they just go [00:15:00] at it. So knowing your process, your creative process is really important. And I also, the way I work, because I tend to perfect some initial modules and the stuff at the end is really kind of fuzzy and not at all thought out.
And I need to get some stuff pretty close to being done before I can move on. But that's me. I don't think necessarily. I think some people are very methodical. Like they do week one. It's done, they move to week two. It's done. That's not, I do like, like three weeks because they interact. Right. So I kind of want to envision the first three or four weeks and get that vision before I can move on.
So it just depends on how you work.
But something else I want to say that I really, really, really, really believe is something that the internet doesn't [00:16:00] often give is depth. There are a lot of really short articles that don't say a whole lot, and even a lot of relatively short podcasts that don't get much depth. And so I think what you should ask yourself is how can I give a certain level of depth in my class that I'm constructing, that students will not be able to get anywhere else.
And then there'll be drawn to taking a class with you because of. They'll know instinctively, I'm getting something from Sarah that I can't get anywhere else. So the Indian lit class that you took, I had spent years doing reading that would never appear in that class, but it it gave me a certain breadth and depth that, so when I came up with a, like a connection or a theme, I knew it was valid [00:17:00] because I, I, wasn't just looking at the works that we were going to read.
I was looking at all these works, we weren't going to read. And so
I, I sort of, the prep I do is to get to the point where I say, I now have the depth, I need to teach this subject. So for example, I. I do this unit on farming in Ethiopia, like, and why they farm the way they do. And I had to do a lot of reading just to get to the point where I was like, I think I understand now, do I understand it?
Like an immediate Ethiopian would know, but do I understand it better than most academics in the U S probably, you know especially at a community college. And so there's a point I just read and think and listen, and then there's a point where something clicks and I'm like, I know this now and now I can, now I can create the course [00:18:00] or now I can create this module.
Sara: That makes sense. Yeah, that totally makes sense. And I can feel how. That definitely comes through in your teaching. Like when we did the film as literature course in Italy, I mean, there was just so many cool rich examples and just beautiful films. We got to watch and cool exercises, like writing down our dreams and then having dialogues with our dreams.
And there was just this. Depth of experience that you could feel coming through in the lectures or the comfort? I didn't feel like it was lectures. Like it was lectures, but it also felt more like a conversation. Like, it always felt like you were, there was a call and response with you and the students.
Like it never felt like just a monologue. It was always you engaging with people and seeing what resonates.
Bryan: Yeah. But you [00:19:00] have to get the depth. And so, you know, in your own practice, I mean, you're trying to do many different kinds of things in your life, so that's hard. But there are areas that, you know, that, you know, pretty well either from experience or reading or trial and error or whatever, you know, and so, and, and you also know the things you don't know that well, you're kind of skating on the surface and.
Spend the time learning more about the stuff you feel like you're skating on because that they can get elsewhere.
Sara: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's helpful just to think of cutting away the pieces that feel irrelevant or that aren't your zone of genius. Like I got to see, you have a couple of YouTube videos now of some of your classes, which I was like, oh my God, that's so fun.[00:20:00]
But there was one of you kind of working through editing this paper and just showing what worked and what didn't work. And I think that was helpful for me to think of for editing the podcast too. Cause I think sometimes I get into like, I don't want to kill my Darlene's. I just, I just want to leave everything there.
But you have to,
Bryan: you have to edit. Yeah. You have to edit in a, so beyond that everything does have an inherent structure. So of course has an inherent structure that the students need to feel sort of unconsciously. Like you won't ever bring your, like, you won't say this is my structure, but it will be they'll know if it, if it has one and you have to figure out love that comes from trial and error, like you'll teach your course and you'll be like, they really need to know X before we [00:21:00] dealt with Y like, you'll know it from like that didn't work.
So I do a lot of sentence structure work and I not only know what levels do which sentences, but I also know this is what's likely to happen when I teach this like, I'm going to have to come back to this concept several times, because probably the first time they're not going to get it, you know, because it's new.
And I don't know if you've, if you've experienced this with humans and learning, when you first introduce them to something new, they default to the thing they already know. It's not what you it's like. No, I don't want you to think about it that way. I want you to think about it in a new way that they go to the default.
And it's a very, at first I was like, well, this is very frustrating, you know, like, but. I think you have to just say, okay, [00:22:00] unless they're just inherently like geniuses from the gate, they're going to go in this direction, then what can I do to have them practice so that they can come over and really do something new?
Like, think about a situation it's new, that there must be equivalent like digestive and eating, and herbalists, there must be predictable things that people are gonna say or do when you give them something new. That isn't really what you like. No, I don't want you to go down that path. I want you to go down this path over here because this is new and fresh and this will, this will take you to a new spot.
Sara: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I feel like I had I had a consultation and herbal consultation with somebody yesterday and I could just tell she was, I just asked her, like, what, what do you normally eat in a day? What does that look like? And I could just tell, she was saying what she thought I wanted to hear.
And it was [00:23:00] definitely not what she actually eats in a day and it was
what you're eating, but what do you think I should eat? And I don't know, just tell me what you ate and then we could go from there.
And I think it is hard for people to do. Break out of that and to try new things and yeah.
Bryan: Yeah. And you know, your audience is, is that's very like, yes, like given, given typically who would show interest in your topic, stereotypically, I would expect people to want to do the thing that they think that you want, rather than just like gender wise, not what's the, what's the breakdown of women versus men in your class.
Sara: In, in the class that I'm taking or in
Bryan: dealing with this topic, how many people are women at home? It's probably,
Sara: yeah, probably 80% women.
Bryan: Right. So like not surprising. Right. So. I mean, I [00:24:00] guess there's, some guys would try to tell you what you wanted to hear, but mostly guys are just going to say, this is what I eat, you know, like, and they're going to be more, whereas women are going to try to, for whatever reasons, like say the pleasing response, you know?
So that's something you have to that's that's distinct to your target audience. Yeah. Good luck.
Sara: I mean, I think part of it is just releasing guilt and shame because I think that's a huge part of why people say what they. You know, they're trying to please you, because there's a sense of guilt about what they've been eating and I'm like, just don't feel guilty about what you're eating. Like it's fine.
It's just acknowledge where you're at. And then you can always add in some more vegetables or adding some more something else. That's good for you.
Bryan: Yeah. Yeah. And lack of trust too, [00:25:00] right? Like this, this gal doesn't, isn't going to really understand why I eat what I eat.
No, which is hard. Yeah. It's it's interesting. I think money, people do things with money that it's. I got, I have a friend and he said, Why are you acting the way you are about money? Like, why don't you do this and this and this, what's your money? And I'm like, oh, come on now. Do you think it's like, because there's all history of people, each person has this long history about money and they're going to do what they do because of tons of things that have happened to them.
Like you can just, it's like, it takes a long time to trust that someone's going to understand why you do what you do. Well, not a long time. It, you do need to gain their trust. I think.
Sara: Yeah. I think for this purse, this [00:26:00] particular person too, I think that's part of it is like getting into just sharing that I, I'm not here to judge her.
Like I don't, I don't, I'm not mad about what she eats. I just, I'm curious. And then we can build. From there and if all, but I think, yeah, it's, it's hard for people to trust anyone else, especially if they're not trusting themselves with what they're eating and their habits and in our culture is just very prone to like making you feel guilty for everything or a lot of,
Bryan: yeah.
Okay. Other questions you want to ask about? So we talked about structure and how long it takes and how the process is going to be very distinct to you. And. There are also, I don't know your topics, but there's also just inherently. You probably want to do X [00:27:00] before you do. Y I got, I don't know if there w I always like to move from, to build on concepts, you know, skip to think of what the, the inherent logic is to the concepts you're trying to talk about.
Sara: That's a good reminder for me is to create that foundation and then continue to build from there. Do you create outlines for yourself or how do you.
Kind of bring in that structure and make sure the sequencing that you do in a class or in a course of over the course of a semester,
Bryan: well, you know, we haven't talked about the actual what you, how do you structure a class period? And that's, that's kind of different because
like when you're dealing with a class period, you have to think about, what's the hardest thing I'm going to do today. [00:28:00] Where in the term does it fall? Like how, how much energy are they probably going to have and what do they need besides content related? Like, do they need. To complain or do they need to get to know one another again?
Or do they need to just, you know, sometimes I'll have people just like, if we use your example, the food journal, I'll be like, you know, let's just look at it and just fill in spaces that you've not had time to really describe. So sometimes the space is just a space to catch up and but the like, like the sequence is important.
So I don't know if you'll remember this, but I'm sure we talked about this.
quote
Bryan: So there's a [00:29:00] old Soviet Russian film theory that says that you should take into consideration the length of a shot, the movement within the shot and the emotional connection that the viewer has with the shot. And I think that is a good guidance for a class.
How long should you do something? How much motion should there be external and internal, and then emotionally, you don't ever want to do something that's intense for the entire class because it's too much, but you know, so you want to do some things that are not that intense, you know, and then either work up to something intense or work away from something that's intense.
So I, I think keeping your thank you, can't do a really long thing and a really long thing. I don't think that works. So if you're going to do something that's really long, do a couple short things. And then do the long thing or [00:30:00] break up the long thing with a couple short things, just cause you know, the way people are.
Does that
Sara: make sense? That absolutely makes sense. And it makes me think of the way that you would talk about sentence structure to, and not to have these long rambling sentences, like maybe have one, but then pick it up with something short and punchy and precise.
Bryan: Right, right. Has short, very short sentence can be just as powerful as a really elaborate sophisticated sentence, you know?
And so you know, and then obviously you want to be very flexible and spontaneous when it comes to the. Structure for the class, because you may get in there. Like sometimes I'll write out something night before and then I'll get into the group and I'll be like that. I can just tell it's not going to work.
Like, I don't know what I was thinking, but this is a ridiculous idea. You know, like they're not ready for this, or they don't want to do this. Like, why would, I think they'd ever want to do this? You know? So then you have to [00:31:00] pivot and do something different.
Sara: Do you keep all those like little tangents or those little pieces in a documentary or something?
I feel
Bryan: it has to be in your head, you know, like the, the structure of, okay, we'll do this. We'll start here. We'll do that. We'll do this. That initial structure is written down, but then, you know what you actually do. I mean, I'm sure there's a musical. Psychiatric panel equivalent to this, like there's the structure with a play.
There's the dialogue, but what you do with the dialogue and how long you stretch out a scene, that totally that's up to you guys, you know, and every theater company will do it differently, you know? So I do the dial. I like the, my equivalent to the dialogue is I'll [00:32:00] sketch. I want to do this and this and this.
And then once we, I get with the people, you know, I'm kind of just depends on that group.
Sara: Yeah. That reminds me kind of circling back to something else you mentioned. Like sometimes people just need to get to know each other better. I'm curious, what role you find community is in learning and in the classroom dynamic.
Bryan: So it's dependent on the class. And I so far writing one 15
community is much more important than writing 1 22 writing 1 22. There are a lot of students who they're pretty close to the end of third thing at PCC. They want to do well in the class. They're mostly nervous about getting into like nursing or wherever they were going to go. They're focused a lot on the future.[00:33:00]
Whereas writing 15 people, it's usually their first term of college. I don't even know if they should be there and I need to feel at home on campus. So that group community is much more important. So ask yourself, like, who are these people? And, you know, are they like busy? Like some people work, first of all, they're, they're spending their valuable, not that large salary on classes.
And so you have to be respectful of that because they're going to be like, are we, am I really spending money to sit and chat with this person? I don't even like, you know, so they have to, they have to feel like they're getting what they want. So it's just, it's super dependent.
Sara: Yeah, that makes sense. I think that reminds me of. Class, you taught once about tone and just noticing the tone in a piece of writing and kind of picking [00:34:00] up on an said cues. Like I remember you had a note, I think it was from a friend or maybe you wrote it.
Bryan: I don't remember. And it was
Sara: just, there was like some underlying, like sharp blue to it and we were just kind of dissecting it in the class and it was an interesting it's an interesting exercise.
I'm curious, like what you, how do you encourage people to work with tone and to work with that critical thinking and notice what's said that's unsaid.
Bryan: Well, Sarah, this is the sort of like the depressing part, like critical thinking teaching that 20 years ago was hard, but you, I could see if I was consistently working on it, I could see people's skills improving.
And I think in 20 years, certain things have gotten culturally where we are in history. Some [00:35:00] things have gotten easier. Like people actually write on the sentence level better than they did 20 years ago. They read abominably. Now they can't read to save their lives. Or they don't want to read. I can't figure out what you did is they don't want to, and they can't do it.
And then the critical thinking is just, has gotten really bad. We were in such a polarized time period that It's really hard because you have to be self-critical as well. You have to think like, what are my own assumptions and biases? And if you're going to look at someone else's biases and assumptions, you have to think about your own and where they match up and where they depart.
And I think there's a real reluctance to even acknowledge that what you believe has limits and blind spots. You know, people, people have a hard time saying [00:36:00] that now being right is very, very important. So I do a little bit of creative, critical thinking not enough and it doesn't stick and it's something that, you know, you have to pick your battles and.
Because I think reading is I spent a lot of time getting them to read and that's become more of a focus, whereas before I could kind of assume you guys read fairly well and would read what I assigned. I no way, I mean, they fight tooth and nail. Now. They, they find all these tricky ways not to read.
That's
Sara: so funny. I wonder what is that
Bryan: about? It's about phones and internet articles and, and people's so they're so distracted and, and how to be able to focus overall that it's. I don't know. And there's this weird thing this was present [00:37:00] before, but it's gotten 10 times worse people say to me, well, this is not something I'm interested in and they're not interested in that.
It's very narrow what they're interested in. So I'm like, well, wait a second, here. You're in school. It shouldn't be like trying to broaden your horizons. Like, you know, they're like, if I don't, if I'm not interested in it, then it's really hard for me to read it. And I don't know. I find it really bizarre.
It's more prevalent that sentiment that used to be.
Sara: Yeah. I could see that. I feel like there is, our culture has been shifting more towards like this extreme of like just black and white. There's very limited. Like there's no liminal space anymore. It's like very it's this way or it's this way. And it can't be anything in between and like, see how.
That makes people less likely to try something new or to look [00:38:00] at something new. There's this idea that a more sophisticated eye is less likely to deem something as good or bad. And just notice it just to notice it without passing any kind of judgment and just to take it for what it is.
And I think, yeah, it's interesting to resist reading in that way.
Marker
Bryan: Yeah. All that stuff I think is true and you won't stay true. I mean, you know, we're always moving through time and so I'm hoping that people will. You know, and like, we, we changed how we put people in writing classes and it used to be, they had to take this very simplistic faulty test in order to get placed.
So now that basically they've let people place themselves and they [00:39:00] see that and the people who really pushed for that see this as a very progressive move. But I, I knew because you're dealing with humans have a psych, you know what? So I have tons of people who sign up for writing one 15, who shouldn't be there, who, because they get to make the choice, they underestimate their abilities and They're actually slowing their progress down because of their own overly cautious nature.
And if, if something had told them, like go to writing 1 21, they would just automatically done that. You know? And some like, but they didn't, I knew that from the outset, but they didn't ask when they were implementing it. They were very guarded. They were like, we're going to, we there's people fighting this and we're going to do it the way we want to do it rather than invite like, okay, what's the critique of, of this idea that we have, that people aren't open to hearing the [00:40:00] critiques of what they want to do at PCC anymore.
And so everyone's very guarded and I'm like, guys, like the best idea that will come out of a group is if you hash it out with the group members.
Sara: Yeah. To have that kind of struggle and like work through and have that resolution.
Bryan: And I mean, they think that we're just a bunch of like reactionary that will just hamper any progress.
So I know, I understand why they went to push things through, but, you know, I think there's a way to do it where you listen to what people really have to say, change things and then make it better.
Sara: So, yeah, that's really interesting that people would underestimate their abilities. I would have thought it would be the [00:41:00] opposite, but I guess maybe.
There's also a benefit to being in a class that's easier than rather, rather than more challenge, but it depends
Bryan: on like Sarah, the very first term. I've not probably, it was the second year I ever taught before I even got here. I had people choose their own grades. Like you get to decide, I was like, this is radical.
I don't even have to, like you decide. Well, I noticed, I was like, the people who are choosing to give themselves Hayes are like the lazy butts, you know? And the people are choosing to give themselves, BS are really the people who worked harder and are better skilled, you know, and not across the board.
There are exceptions, you know, but I was like, this sucks, like, you know, and it was just the history that you bring. With you is going to help you make that decision of where you want, you know, and it wasn't accurate. I was like, none of this is accurate. Like, so I changed. I was like, no, I'm going to decide, because I [00:42:00] think I can say more objectives than you can subjectively what you deserve in this class.
It was the worst. I love
Sara: the idea of it though. Cause I think grading in the creative realm, like that was another thing that really turned me off from teaching is having to grade people for their art. It just was soul sucking to me. And I just, I really didn't like having to tell people like that piece is an a and that piece is a C and I just based it more off of time and effort rather than ability and final execution, because some people are just better.
At drafting and drawing and replicating an image. Firstly is other people don't have the same skillset yet.
Bryan: Yeah. Yeah. Well, the thing is, I think what I, where I'm at now, like 20 years later is [00:43:00] I, I pay less attention to the letter grade and more attention to the feedback feedback.
No one will ever know, but I can say like, come on, like, there's nothing original in this at all. You know, I can still give you an a, because that's like that's for other people over there. And it's important that they admit, yeah, I wasn't, I didn't really even try to be original, you know, like I think that's, that's something you want people to recognize.
Sara: Yeah. Oh definitely. I mean, I, I think that's.
That's the more important thing. Like I would, I mean, I would spend so much time like writing these, critical analysis and then nobody would even read it.
Bryan: No, they have to read it. But you know, like they, I don't know if you remember that at the end of the year, they have this student art show.
And I always go and I go through the art gallery and I'm like, God, why do [00:44:00] most of these things suck? You know, there's so, and there has to be a reason, you know, and I'm like, I don't, there's something about the process that didn't get the student to the point where they could create the art that they were capable of.
Let me say something that's actually, this is like I think it's important because we haven't said it that whenever you're teaching, whatever it is, it's almost secondary to what's going on between you and the student.
And the connection that you have with the student is for me the most, the primary. Like we could be talking about, you know, pasta, but if I feel like
where you feel comfortable enough to come and talk about stuff other than pasta, if you need to. And that's really what teaching [00:45:00] is about, you know, like, so there's the topic.
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Bryan: And then, and that just like I have to get out there that the relationship you form with the students is the most important thing.
And in some ways it doesn't matter what you teach.
Sara: That's so, helpful. , I always felt like in your classes, I just felt very seen and acknowledged and respected and. Challenged a little bit, like you were always like, you can do better than this. And I'm like, that would be hard,
Bryan: but I don't know if you remember, like when we were in Italy, we went, I think we went to a Chinese restaurant and it was just like you and I just chatting and we went for dinner or lunch or something.
And to me that was like really important to like, it was really important. And then I think there was four of you that I had back to the flat, like, I don't know, maybe like two of the [00:46:00] Megan's and Karen you, and that's, that's the essence of the teacher, student relationship, you know? So I think that just has to be said.
Sara: Yeah, I think that that is profound. And I, I have to remember that in my connections, I think with my clients too. Cause I feel like it's, it's, there's a little bit of like. Teacher role with working with clients and like kind of coaching them with health stuff. And so, yeah, I think it is, I need to remember, it's less about what I say and more about just people feeling seen and acknowledged
Bryan: .
And also like whether we get this food thing down right. Or not, like you care about them in a bigger way, you know, like someone could be crap for the rest of your life and you still [00:47:00] care about them. I think that because you know, most people can't break bad habits.
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Bryan: They don't, I mean, let's be real and carry those bad habits to the grave.
And so, but loving those people that, you know, I think that's the most important thing. Yeah, I think that's
Sara: true. Like I'm still a very lazy writer, but you're still talking to me. So,
Bryan: Hey, well, we have to have a whole other conversation where we don't talk about these things that we just catch up, but definitely.
Sara: Is there anything else you want to touch on? I'm curious if you're, I know for years I've been like praying when it's your book coming out or you yeah.
Bryan: See, I don't, you know, my, my bias, my assumption is that there are a lot of good books because I can never read [00:48:00] enough.
I know there are a lot of good books cause I have a stat. I have stacks everywhere of things I want to read, but I don't think there are that many good teachers. I think there are, there's a dearth of really good teachers. And so I would prefer. For a little while longer to just put most of my energy into teaching.
And then when I'm not, then I'm retired then. Okay. Then writing can maybe take a center stage. But I think the world needs writers. Not as much as I need teachers right now.
. But some people can do boats. I mean, if you can do both more power to you, they can do it simultaneously. I just can't.
Sara: Yeah. Do you ever feel like you've done enough? Cause that's one thing I noticed when I am teaching. I never feel like I've put enough into my teaching. And it's just like this relentlessly hungry monster that I need to [00:49:00] keep feeding. And I'm like, but it's still,
Bryan: yeah. It's the sad part because you, you always know, like I could have done that art so much better if I had had time or if I had had the energy and there are things that I've been wanting to get to all these years and I'm like, I still don't teach that very well.
That doesn't mean I don't teach a whole bunch of other things better, but that's just the nature. It's, it's the sad part. But Hey, you know, it is it's, it's It's insurmountable what we have to do.
Sara: But thank you for doing it and for being there for people and Hey, well,
Bryan: thanks for still talking to me about, I love it.
Yes. \
Okay. It was so good to see you. See you, Brian. Thank
Sara: you so
Bryan: much. Have a wonderful week. Take care. here
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