EP 73: The Rest is Medicine with Rooted Birth Doula, Davinah Simmons
Davinah Simmons is a full spectrum doula, a childbirth and lactation educator, a facilitator, a writer and photographer. In this conversation we chatted about how rest is medicine and what it has been like to be a full spectrum doula during this pandemic. her doula practice has evolved over the last 2 years. We discuss rage and grief and ancestral healing and the range of emotions that occur during postpartum time. She created a worksheet for her clients to have difficult conversations ideally before a baby is born and we discuss the workshops she has hosted and plans to host in the future, the enneagram and racism, writing practices and rituals to help release energetic chords between self and others. Dancing for our grief and witnessing birth stories as a way to help bring more healing to this planet.
Oooh, and She was recently featured on NPR and it is a great episode. There will be a link to that in the show notes if you wanna hear that. And you can listen back to episode 30 for our chat from almost 2 years ago.
Davinah Simmons links
https://www.instagram.com/rootedbirthdoula/
https://www.kuow.org/stories/out-of-a-summer-of-black-grief-insisting-on-black-joy
Music by Corrina Repp
@corrinarepp
Topics covered:
Meditation
The medicine of rest in the body
Resting in labor
The impact and importance of rest
Behind the scenes of doula work
Beginning of birth and doula
Covid doula work
The honor of walking with people in their grief
Personal relationship with grief
Rage as a force for good
Channeling energy into workshop
Therapy is a good idea
Grief dance
Apothecary-26 minutes
Discernment around who we choose to learn from
Postpartum is not something to mess with
Creating a tool for postpartum
Dialogue with teachers
Long version available on Patreon
( 10 more minutes of behind the scenes chats)
figuring out the next steps
Ideal cultural dream
Workshops around grief
Losing your mother
Mountain is there and is suddenly not there anymore
Writing process
What it has meant to witness people in postpartum
Terminating pregnancy
Importance of reflection
Ritual of releasing others energy
Writing as a ritual of reflection
Long version available on Patreon
( 10 more minutes of behind the scenes chats)
figuring out the next steps
Ideal cultural dream Energetics of instagram
Morning pages ritual
Death doula work
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Description text goes hereDavinah.January 2021
[00:00:00] Sara: [00:00:00] Well, I would love to yeah, I'd love to get into how your work has shifted. I think it's been, it's been over a year since we talked,
Davinah: [00:00:09] yeah, I think Mormon too,
So the year after you and I talked, that was a really big year for me with my practice. It, it grew and expanded and really took off. And I started teaching workshops to folks in the wellness community around like centering it was called centering the marginalized experience.
And that workshop was really about Getting getting down into the, into the depths of what it means to make your practice inclusive and what type of personal work that really involves. And so. A lot of people come to the class with their notepads and they're like, Oh my gosh, you're going to tell me how to do this.
Right. Blah, blah, blah. And then they get into the class. And before they know it, I'm like, let's talk about shadow work. Like let's talk about, the witch wound. Let's talk about what it means to really do your own work before you try to [00:01:00] even embody what it means to take care of other people. And that workshop came to me.
It, it came to me through a series of people and then through encouragement and then , so I got to do that four or five times in person, and then once during the pandemic and it was pretty, it was really powerful, like, and, . What it really showed me is I love teaching. Like teaching is really special to me.
And it allowed me to do something that was outside of doula work, which was like swallowing me home. So, and in a good way, like I think, but I got really lost in, in birth and postpartum work and it was really beautiful. That was a beautiful year. A lot of, a lot of babies born and a lot of people taking care of them that time.
And you know, 2020 was a year was, was a year also full of births even through the pandemic, which required a lot of shifting and pivoting. As a birth worker who is immunocompromised who's in a black body and what it means to take that [00:02:00] risk and still be supporting people. And it's not romantic, it's not you know, ponies and rainbows, like it's re it was really hard, really scary.
And And it required a lot of flexibility because, you know, we didn't know a lot at the beginning of 2020 when the pandemic hit and we didn't know where we were going. We had no idea. And so to be ushering people through the journey and onto the bridge of Parenthood, when they have no idea what they don't know.
And then I know a little bit of that, but I also have no idea what's happening with this pandemic. There was a lot of communication, a lot of communication, a lot of planning and preparing for me to not be present with them or me to be present with them. And yeah, so there a lot, a lot of energy was expended in 2020.
And I also did postpartum work in 2020, and that was, you know, just. In its own right? Taking care of people who are even more isolated from their communities than they ever have been [00:03:00] with a brand new baby. And it was heartbreaking. It was really special, but it was heartbreaking to witness and to see people navigating this alone and to be the only person that they see, you know, like when I come in, they're just like, You're here here's me, but like, please talk to me.
And so. Yeah. And the, like I said, I think postpartum work is truly the deep end of birth work. I don't say that to make birth sound like it's light and it's easy. Cause it's not like being a birth doula is really, really hard work, but the postpartum spaces where people start licking their wounds.
They're looking there, licking their wounds of life like that. You know, this baby has now shown them that they have, because the baby is triggering them is bringing up things. The baby is the mirror of the postpartum and the baby will show you what work you have not resolved. And yeah. Yeah. And so [00:04:00] people are licking their wounds from that.
People are. Processing this big experience of whatever it took to get that baby here. Like they're figuring out what their birth means to them. And sometimes even in that haze, trying to figure it out when I'm like, we can, we can touch that in time. But right now, like you are so sleep deprived, you are likely dehydrated.
You're likely undernourished. You're likely. Feeling very far away from your partner. If you have a partner you're likely feeling very far away from your community. So like first things first, like, have you showered today? Yeah. Like a
Sara: [00:04:37] glass of water.
Davinah: [00:04:39] Yeah. And like, look at your nipples. They're up to the high heavens.
So just there were so many, I think, you know, There were so many things to, to navigate with people as I supported them postpartum. And, you know, I think that that was a big [00:05:00] experience. So that is, you know, where I've been since we've spoken last, I've learned. So much so much as a doula from 2020, and also just from, you know, doing this work and going to birth it's different every time and supporting a post-partum family that has different needs every time.
And within that, the learning continues like you just, you know, you finish your training and you think, Oh, like, I'm going to, I'm going to go and do this in like 80 births later. I'm like, Oh, I'm still learning things. I'm still being humbled.
Sara: [00:05:34] I can see how you're such a natural teacher though. And I love that you have started offering classes to be able to share this wisdom because you've done so many trainings.
You've been there for so many birds. Like you just have this rich experience and understanding, and, and even before you got into the birth work, I know you were doing a lot of work with counseling and also photography. So [00:06:00] there's like this beautiful merging of. The arts and just a deep, poetic understanding of people where they're at and being able to meet them there.
And, yeah, I don't, where's my question going, but
Davinah: [00:06:15] I think I actually might be catching where
Marker-grief quoteI think that the all encompassing Reflection that I have from all of what you've said is that I really have enjoyed walking with people in their grief. Like I have been so honored. And so captivated by what grief means to us in its many forms and iterations of its existence. And I think my relationship with grief in particular has really helped me.
To stand with people in theirs. Because like grief can take on so many different [00:07:00] formations in our lives and like, it can be the tornado one day and like the like slow going river the next day. And it feels so minute to minute and I think that we often are not prepared. Or we weren't prepared before a pandemic to release it with our grief and like, Acknowledge it and understand it and ask it questions and like take it to T Hmm.
So I think that that has been truthfully and everything that I've done and working with wellness practitioners and helping them unravel their shit and working with postpartum families and working with birthing families. Like I have really been able to touch people's grief with them and. Not by any of my doing like, it is simply that they are open and simply that they trust me and to witness people in that space, like to witness people, actively participating [00:08:00] with their grief has been quite the experience.
Sara: [00:08:03] I just want to sob, like just that idea. I can feel how you are with people in this deeper way. And I saw on your website, there was somebody commented. They're like I just domino would show up and say, what would it feel good. And I just, I love that. That just feels so grounding.
I could feel how that would be so grounding for you working with the birthing person and for the family, just to kind of like be able to like, reflect, like what do I need, what would feel good and w. Where am I at emotionally? I love that you're able to really be with people and do that shadow work and kind of reflect on that to come out the other side of it, [00:09:00] because I think it's really easy to just get stuck in the mock and not, or to try to avoid it.
But I love that you're able to just like deep and into it with people so that they can evolve and learn a new way of being.
Davinah: [00:09:17] Yeah. Yeah. It's I think we, as a society, at least as an American society we do not have an understanding of what it means to be in relationship , with grief. And I think when people meet their grief for the first time, it can feel very disembodied.
It can feel chaotic. It can feel like a threat. And you know, I, I think that we also, as, at least as adults have experienced grief throughout our childhood, but we don't have the name for it until people like our [00:10:00] partners or romantic partners or close, intimate friendships and relationships, or our newborn babies ring the bell.
And like really help us understand the sides of us that we have neatly tried to pack away and dissociate from. And I, I really do. I was just talking to a friend the other day, and we were talking about this anger that he had. And I said, Is it anger that you have, or is it grief? And he was like, Whoa.
He was like, my body just said it was grief. Like when you asked me when you said the word and I was like, we don't, we don't spend enough time understanding that like so much of what is behind anger and sadness and fear and guilt and all of those things are versions of grief. That are just asking to be.
Witnessed and are asking for [00:11:00] space and asking for a collective breath or a moment a moment. Right. And so, yeah, I think I'm, I'm just so fascinated by that. And I'm fascinated by how grief locates itself in our bodies. I'm fascinated by how grief you know, is, is a vehicle, how grief and rage. Our friends and partner together.
And I tell people in my workshop, when I open and introduce myself, I always share, like this workshop was born out of my range as a black woman. Like this workshop was born from rage that needed a vehicle and needed a place to live and to be because my body could not hold that. My spirit could not hold that.
And so what you are sitting in this container that you are sitting in. Like that's where this came from. And I think if we're able to give. Those experiences and those emotions and those relations with our, with, with grief and with rage, when we can do that, like we can [00:12:00] change the world. Like we can change the world, we can touch people and places that emotionally that they've never been touched or experienced or witnessed in.
And because we all know it, we know those collective feelings, like we know them. But for some of us, we just have never given ourselves permission to give it a name.
Sara: [00:12:18] Wow. Yeah.
I love the, you're able to create that container that evolved from your rage, but then be able to like give it momentum that helped heal yourself and everyone in the group and help them to step forward to serve marginalized bodies with a deeper awareness. Is there, are there. Is there anything like an exercise or something you can offer as a way for people to kind of dip into processing?
Their own shit to [00:13:00] do a better job.
Davinah: [00:13:01] Yeah. You know, I think the first thing I would say, and I know that this isn't necessarily accessible to everyone. But therapy, like I think that first and foremost, sitting with a licensed care provider who embodies some part of your own like existence and known existence is important.
I think that being able to have someone witness and walk with you, just like a doula, right? But like someone who is trained to witness you and also help you keep yourself safe is the first step. And then the second step is sitting with yourself long enough to feel uncomfortable. I think that we try to navigate away from our own discomfort by buying things, by filling our houses with things, by eating, by drinking, by recreational drugs.
Like not to say that recreational drugs aren't fun, [00:14:00] but like by distracting ourselves with those things. And when really like what we're trying to, what we're doing is running. And so I think sometimes sitting with. With things until they start to feel uncomfortable and Like letting those things be activated.
And I learned this one technique in a, it was a group that I was a part of led by this woman. Her name is Bernadette. I think her last name is pleasant. I think her name is Bernadette pleasant. I'm pretty sure that's what it was. Great name. Right? Powerful Bernadette is a powerful person and I was able to participate in this.
Beautiful group, right. Actually around the time that George Floyd was killed. And the group was put on by Sabya Wade who runs the birthing advocacy doula trainings, and Sadia is an incredible human. But she put this group together and. We did a grief dance and we listened to someone drum and we did it on zoom and this person was drumming [00:15:00] live.
And we, she led us through this dance, like where it was just moving your body wherever you were. And then screaming. So like just starting to make sounds and starting to just scream and starting to like, let. Kind of activating your Vegas nerve and really like giving your vagus nerve and opportunity to kind of like come back online.
And then as you started to feel your grief come to you, burn, it instructed us to put our hands on our chest and our heart space and ask the grief how much time it needed. And I remember. Saying how much time do you need? And like, I just felt like, I felt like my bones wanted to just fall out of my skin and like, just be on the floor, you know, like it was just really powerful.
Moment of literally turning towards myself and giving myself the attention that I needed [00:16:00] and really truthfully, and I know people hear this, but like what it means to reparent yourself, like turning to my inner child and being like, babe, like. What do you need in this space right now? Because like it's okay to come out and say what you need.
I know it might not have been okay. When you were a kid, but like it's okay. Now. So I think that that tool was like, has been really helpful in moments where I just. You know, big feelings because adults feel big feelings too, but like we just, we shut down, like little kids are like, I'm going to have a fucking tantrum right here right now in front of the Cheetos on aisle number six, like we're going to pull this shit apart.
But adults are like, well, I'm just going to pack this away and have five martinis later. And so just really giving ourselves permission to access that and feel it.
Sara: [00:16:53] So beautiful. Thank you for that. I just feel like that's such a beautiful tool and [00:17:00] I, I can feel how that's going to help people.
Maybe me, I need to do like a rage dance. Just like turn the lights off, turn the music up loud and just like, yeah, just
Davinah: [00:17:13] yeah. Scream. Yeah. And you know, I think more often than not. That has helped me so much in birth spaces when a birth is like happening. And I'm like, I am exhausted. I have nothing left to give this family.
I need to call my backup. But in the meantime, like what's happening in me right now that is like, Taking me away from these people that I care about that I'm supporting. And it's really given me some opportunities to like reground and refocus myself. Like, and I literally do it on the toilet. I will step out of that birth and go to the bathroom and just sit on the toilet for a moment and just.
Ask, like, what do you need? Like, what do you need? How much time do you need? Cause like, I [00:18:00] got shit to do out there. Like there's a baby trying to navigate their way through someone's pelvis. I gotta to go. But like I want it, so sit with this because whatever it is is asking for something too and my body and, you know, I just find that those parts of ourselves come out when we're deeply tired.
When we're so tired and you know, we're like weary and then something wants to like pop up and be like, hi,
Sara: [00:18:25] now you're going to have a crying fit too. Yeah,
Davinah: [00:18:27] exactly. Exactly. So, yeah. Yeah. Lots of ways done there that I'm grateful to have been given about it.
Sara: [00:18:38] Yeah, that's incredible. I love how. Do you structure those classes?
Like, I'm curious, like, I don't want to take that class. Are you going to offer it again? Cause that sounds, yeah,
Davinah: [00:18:53] I am. I think, you know, doing it for the first time online in the pandemic, like what really was [00:19:00] missing and I will say this because it, it, I felt it I did the, the original workshop in an apothecary that was owned by a dear friend of mine that has now closed because of the pandemic.
But the apothecary space was truly magical. Like, I mean, like water or earth, wind fire elements everywhere. And like, Community alters in the space like oils. And like, it just, it was like the space that facilitated such important self introspection. And so, but, but what, what this workshop does have now that we didn't have before was people are able to do this work in the containers of their own homes.
And I think that that still gives me something to work with and gives them something to work with because it feels safe. And so the way that the workshop is structured, is it structured in six modules? In person when we're doing an in-person, it was one day and it was from [00:20:00] 10:00 AM to like 4:00 PM.
One day I was like ramming it into one, one day. And so when we, when I did it online with the pandemic I had it start on a Friday night for three hours, and then we went all day, Saturday and The first module, we kind of, I introduced a lot of concepts around, like what we're going to be talking about some vocabulary and giving people a little bit more, giving people, words, giving people language to understand where we're going.
And I think that the second module we talk about Intergenerational trauma and epigenetic tags and like explaining how someone in a marginalized body, but really anybody carries intergenerational trauma with them and carries, you know, like the epigenetic tags that. Host and make space for intergenerational trauma to continue.
So we talk about that. I think module three really focused on. Shadow work and understanding our own biases and understanding how to do shadow work, where to [00:21:00] start or to go and how shadow work never finishes. So like we're really unpacking the concept of it and kind of the benefits of doing shadow work.
Because I think a lot of people assume it's just this mucky hard, deep stuff, but yeah. Really helping people find, understand how you find liberation when you do shadow work. And then, and I think that also helps people understand how they perpetuate problematic behavior, how they perpetuate harm in communities that have already been harmed communities that are, that have been marginalized.
And so really helping people dig in and like touch their own roots. And there's a lot of dialogue, so I really have them talk to each other. Most people that sign up for this course are white women. That's just kind of the, you know which I think that truthfully are. Are definitely, I feel like white women are definitely the target group for this workshop because white women understand what it means to be oppressed, but also what it means to have power and white women [00:22:00] are usually also the ones who are co-opting wellness spaces.
Yeah. Doing a lot of wellness work. And so that is usually the, the group that I have in front of me. And every now and then I get someone who is a part of the black indigenous, or people of color community. And I offer scholarships for them to take the course, but also with the understanding that like, Hey, this is who's going to be in this workshop.
And I just want you to know that to make sure that people still feel safe and like to help facilitate what that means to keep people safe. So Then the other modules after that are talking about why marginalized communities don't receive appropriate care. So like, what are the barriers? Because I think a lot of people assume that it's just because they don't have access to it or they don't have money.
And really it's like, no, actually like the people in the systems or the problems. So like let's really jump to that. We really get, we comb through like, Every piece of what that means. And then the last couple of modules are really about like, okay, where do you go from here? But we spend a lot of time also talking about teachers.
[00:23:00] Like we talk a lot about what it means to hold teachers accountable, what it means to have have what's the word I'm looking for? So there's the deep discernment having discernment around who you're learning from and also challenging. Challenging teachers and instructors, when you see them being problematic, when you see them perpetuating harm and, you know, causing harm in, in communities and what it means to be of integrity.
So we talk a lot about that and we really dig in there. And then the last thing is really kind of a professional audit. So we do a professional audit where I kind of help people. I give them a lot of steps of like, here's how to comb through your own practice and look for. Some of the like red flags and to really figure out how to know and integrity when you will need to serve someone and no one integrity when you should not serve someone like when someone comes to you and you're like, I am not the right person to help you because there is someone else in the community who embodies your lived [00:24:00] experience that can take better care of you than I can.
And like what it means to wrestle with yourself and know. When that is appropriate. So a lot of kind of accountability and, and calling out and calling in and this workshop, which it's a good time. Like it's a really good, yeah, that
Sara: [00:24:16] sounds amazing. And such a gift. And I feel like so necessary right now, you know, and I just.
Yeah, potent and perfectly timed. Cause I feel like people are just really waking up to yeah. Just work that we need to do around marginalized bodies, racism, sexism, Abel is you know, all the isms and just like. Okay. Let's do this work. Like let's jump in and do it. So I feel like it's time
Davinah: [00:24:54] is right. Sure.
Like the isms and the phobias. Right. And also I think [00:25:00] that sometimes people really want to jump in and. And do something and point a finger at the problem. And they don't want to point to what the problem is internally. And that is like, I think that's the biggest problem because like, when you can't understand.
The roots of your own shit. Like how on earth are you going to be safe for other people? Like how on earth are you going to have the internal and external awareness and, and integrity to receive feedback, to receive, you know, when people have feedback for you, what it means for you to receive that and hold it and do something with it.
Because I think that the problem. A lot of what the problem is is we have these communities of usually white folks or able-bodied folks, or CIS folks who point their fingers at the issue. And don't realize that like pointing your finger is also [00:26:00] a problem. Like you have to call in your people, you have to call in your people.
So it's really, I really try to, to. You know, work within that space with who is in those workshops and talk about the issues there and kind of the common patterns but also to help people look back to their lineage. So that workshop is also talks. We talk a lot about ancestral work and I was privileged to work with the wonderful, amazing Rachel whites.
Oh yes. So. Doing that work really helps me like really reconstruct and liberate myself from. Problematic patterns in my own lineage and my own family. And so we do a lot of, we talk a lot about ancestral work in this workshop and talk a lot about really looking back at your lineage and putting your finger on certain things that you still embody today then are still embodied in your family.
And like why [00:27:00] we have to start. I tell them all the time, like you have to. Before you can do, you have to be like, before you can do any of these things before you can do these things and make change, you have to embody it. You have to live it because it's their will. There's an issue. If it's, if you're not embodying it, there's, there's a problem there.
And it's hard work and it's lifelong work, so, yeah,
Sara: [00:27:23] absolutely. But I love that. You're. Doing it, you're making it available. I'm bringing that to the light. Has it been challenging to be kind of like. To teach that,
Davinah: [00:27:37] you know, after every class I'm pretty wiped out. And it, it's more of just holding a container and holding space.
But I also think you know, one of the things that I say to them in my introduction as I'm introducing myself is that there will be things that I say to you today that make you feel angry or uncomfortable because it's coming from the mouth of a black woman and you have to sit with that. But [00:28:00] I, in. I think that like, I feel really privileged to be able to be in, to finally be the one teaching this, because I think while I think that this work is for white people to teach each other I don't think that a lot of white people are there yet.
And I also am grateful that like, this is. This is finally work that I want to do because I'm being paid to do it. I'm not just pulling from my own personal reserves of energy and bandwidth and talking to the white people in my life that I love because I don't do that shit anymore. I told in 2020, in summer of 2020, I told the white people who were left in my life.
Like, this is, these are the rules of the game. And if you don't on a plate, you got to go. And but I started pink slipping. I call it pink slipping. I was pink slipping white people in my life for years before that. But I finally now with this workshop, like this is a group that [00:29:00] I I feel like I can talk to and also being compensated for my time and compensated for.
All of the work it took to pull it together. And so it is hard not in the, not in that way of being a black woman, talking to white people. Because the white people who show up to this class are ready to do the work like them signing up and showing up is, is a huge part of why it goes so well.
But I think that, you know, just. Teaching this and speaking to people and holding people in this, you know, like together. Yeah. It's big. It's big. It's
Sara: [00:29:37] really big. It is really big. And I could, I just could see how I think, I don't know what your Enneagram is. I'm like, I'm a nine, so I hate conflict. So the idea of like, Kind of getting in front of people and telling them that they have work to do.
Yeah,
I could ever possibly [00:30:00] do like.
Davinah: [00:30:00] That is such a nine characteristic, which I, my partner is a mind and I'm an eight. So that is like we, my partner and I are the challenger and the peak. What is the mine? The peacemaker. Yeah. So can you imagine what it's like?
We've grown to understand and, and. Understand what it means to be an eight and a nine in a loving relationship, but there are days where I'm sure he wants to put me in a box and shipped me off somewhere. But I'll say like, I think that, you know, sitting in front of people and telling them they have work to do and hearing that, like that is also a symptom of of whiteness, right?
Like it's a symptom of, of freezing as a white person when truth is being spoken. And freezing because you know, your, your felt sense, your felt embodied sense of truth is that it's true right in your bones. But when white people have been subjected to [00:31:00] violence for centuries and centuries and centuries violence against themselves violence against women violence against people of color violence against indigenous communities, like you freeze because you are stuck in the tension.
Of knowing what is right. But witnessing what is not and why people don't often know which way to go in that and have been complicit for so long that it does create like ancestrally, that is a symptom of whiteness. And so it is like to sit in front of people and be like, y'all have work to do.
Like white supremacy is perfectionism. There's no such thing as work to do.
Sara: [00:31:36] So how that is. That's blowing my mind. I mean, I that's just so I can see how that's so true and that's yeah.
Ooh,
Davinah: [00:31:49] let me think.
Sara: [00:31:51] Wow. That's amazing. I just, I love how you're able to just be that mirror for people. And I also [00:32:00] love talking earlier about like the postpartum phase and how that is. Yeah. A time when birthing people are kind of, their babies are mere for things and have you found any, anything that helps,
Mommas or families to kind of. Move through that time, like any tools, because I try to just be there, but I don't, I'm like, I want to have more tools in the toolbox. And so I dunno if there's like, If there's anything you can suggest.
Yeah,
Davinah: [00:32:41] I can. So yeah, the tool, like things that I find, things that I find that help postpartum folks. Navigating the first three months, which I call the fog because I think the first three months are you're recovering your body.
Body's [00:33:00] recovering. I mean, your body recovers from birth for, it takes a year for your body to recover from birth or more. I think people for themselves, when they say like, I'm going to be out up and out in a month or two weeks and like, it's crazy, but yeah, like you just. Evicted a human from your body. And so anyway I think I have a lot of real talk with my clients in the prenatal space.
We do a lot of post-partum education and preparation and planning in the prenatal space where I give clients a handout. Eight pages long. And it has all of the sections of life that you will rub up against in the postpartum time. So we're talking about feeding your baby. We're talking about nourishing yourself or talking about sleep.
We're trying like all these things. And I ask them questions, situational questions. Like, what are you going to do if this happens? What will you do if this happens? Who will you call if this happens? What do you plan to do to navigate this together? How do you, because.Marker-quote I believe that no person [00:34:00] partner or birthing person exits the postpartum time unscathed, like it gets everybody.
I don't care how much money you have. I don't care if you're white. I don't care if you have your whole community around you. I don't care if you're, I don't care. I don't care because I've seen it time and time again. I don't care. I'm like if I tell them that clients expect speed bumps. Expect road closures expect roadblocks.
Like your journey in the postpartum time is not going to be a straight line, just like your birth is not going to be a straight line. And we, I think when people see this, this handout and I tell them, you don't have to. Complete it, you don't have to have answers. I want you to read through it together and I want you to discuss, like, this is for dialogue.
If there's someone who doesn't have a partner, then we'll go through it together and talk through it to help prepare. But I also say, who is your closest support person? Like who would that person be? Because [00:35:00] that's going to be the person you go through this document. Right. And I'll tell you, I, I would say maybe like, 45 to 50% of my clients actually like spend time with it before we have that, that meeting prenatally and the other half, we go through it together in our visit and they're like, Oh shit.
Like they're like stress. And it's really important for people to realize that because I as Americans, we think this all the time, I tell my clients, you are not the exception. Like what makes you think you are so special that this is going to be easy for you because it's not. And as we know, rearing children and raising children was not a two person job.
Like DEC centuries ago, like our ancestors together, like they did this in community. There were like 10 or 11 people roll in deep to help you take care of you, your baby and your partner or your sperm [00:36:00] donor, or we want to say that. We talk a lot about it and then when they get into postpartum, when they find themselves in a postpartum body with a new baby, I. I remember, honestly, check in, like, especially, especially like with COVID, but like, even before that, Because like Birdsong, Brooklyn.
I love them. I love, love, love, love, love Erica and Laura. So, so, but one of the things that they talk about is what happens to postpartum people. They get dropped at the curb and then how you have your baby and everybody's like, congratulations. Oh my God. You're amazing. Congratulations. Your new baby.
Yay. Yeah. And then you don't hear from people and people stop coming by and you're like, Sleepy and you hate your partner and sometimes you resent your baby and sometimes you resent your body because for some people, their bodies failed them. That's what they believe is that their bodies failed them in birth.
And you need people to come [00:37:00] around you and say it is okay to resent your baby today. It is okay to be having a hard time with your body because your body didn't do what you thought it was supposed to do and reframing what failure is because nobody's body will fail them. Like people and systems and care providers will fail you.
Your body did not fail you, but like really everybody in the postpartum time needs people to reframe things for them because we, they don't have the ears to hear. What is actually true and they are sleep deprived, probably dehydrated, probably undernourished. Like I was saying earlier, probably stinky.
Haven't had it covered in baby shit and like baby pace and baby VAR. Couldn't hear anything when you are stinky. Sticky and stupid tired, like can hear it right. [00:38:00] And so, and so we need, we need the threads of our community to hold us together. And that is like, that is our job is to show up for people and.
We've our threads into people's stories. And then the next support person comes in and weave their thread into the story. And you come back and weave your threat. Like we're supposed to be holding this tapestry together. And instead we have people who are isolated, who are not getting enough sleep. Who are not being fed nutritious foods who are struggling to feed their babies from their bodies or struggling to make the choice, to, to prioritize their mental health and not be their babies from their bodies, because that's okay too.
Like people are not showing up and people are not giving postpartum people permission to be a mess to fall apart and to hate it because it is hateable. It's hateable. Yeah. It's it's [00:39:00] absolute. Fuck shit.
And, and what, what a gift to be able to tell someone. You are going to love your baby so much, but you are going to be in it like you, aren't going to be in some really intense shit. And you're going to be holding the dualities of joy and pain and resentment and regret and gratitude. And life-changing love like you're going to be holding that bag and you're going to be digging in that bag every day and pulling one of those things out every other minute.
Like why. Why are we not preparing people for this more is my question. And also when people get to the other side and then they get through it, why are they not talking about it? Why are they not like giving people the opportunity to witness their own experience and what they went through? Because there's healing in that too, right?
Sara: [00:39:52] .
I'm curious, like what, what could that look like for breathing people to tell their [00:40:00] stories more like, yeah,
Davinah: [00:40:01] yeah, yeah. So I'm actually, this is actually something I'm I'm introducing soon. Called birth story witnessing. I'm also going to be offering a postpartum witnessing for, for people. But birth story. Yeah. Birth story witnessing is very similar to birth story medicine which is something that a woman named Pam England, who was affiliated with birthing from within D doesn't training on.
I haven't taken the training. And so I interviewed a lot of women in my family to understand what bursary witnessing means to, for those in my family that are elders now.
And so. Birthday witnessing for me, what that offering would look like is an hour of witnessing you, as you share your birth story. For some people, this is like the first time they've shared it for some people. It's the 50th time, like any time in the postpartum space, which is basically from the time you have your baby to the tiny die that's postpartum.
Right. So witnessing them in that and then spending the next hour, helping them write their birth story. And so [00:41:00] talking to them about what it means for you to write your birth story and find a new sort, a new sense of sovereignty in that. And how, and, and I am not a trained therapist. So like birth story witnessing is not to help you process the traumatic things about your birth.
It's to have someone listen to you in that. And obviously like I have a counseling background and so. Knowing when it's appropriate to make a referral or make sure that someone is connected to a therapist, but helping people speak their stories. Because I think that one of the things that we oftentimes experience is a life changing event, like birth.
We're not witnessing people enough, we're not hearing their stories enough. And so. This is to witness people. Who've had empowering birth because I think people who have empowering beautiful births that they're really happy about. Also don't get to talk about them because we are so full of the [00:42:00] traumatic birth stories and the birth stories where things went terribly wrong, or when things went wrong and didn't go the way we wanted them to.
That oftentimes people who have really empowering birth stories don't get the same space or acknowledgement that they should either. And so this is bursar witnessing is for anyone who has had a baby with any type of outcome. So that is alive birth, a baby who is born alive. That is a baby who was born dead.
That is someone who had a spontaneous. Abortion, which is also a term for miscarriage that I use is spontaneous abortion. Someone who chose to have an abortion, someone who had determinate a twin in their pregnancy. So it is for anyone who has been pregnant and has had a baby exit their womb or their belly with any outcome.
And I think that this is important because like, these are the experiences that shape us. Yeah. And these are the experiences that people like. I wish that I could hear my, like [00:43:00] grandmother's birth story. My great-grandmother her story, you know, like I wish that I could, I wish that I could hear the baby of the story of, you know, the babies that are not here in my family that were born, but were born dead or were more than that.
They were lost. They were, they had a spontaneous abortion and we're lost. Right. So Birth story witnessing is something that I'm rolling out for people. And then postpartum witnessing is the second thing of really, this is for people who have been right postpartum at any point in their life, which is forever.
But helping people, not only reconcile and I can't help people reconcile their postpartum experience. I'm going to say that that's not my responsibility, but helping people sit with it and. Offering them a moment to be witnessed and offering them a moment to forgive themselves. Because I also think that people move through the postpartum time, wishing they had prepared more feeling abandoned, feeling alone, feeling, let down feeling like they fail that the [00:44:00] beginnings of parenting, because there were things they didn't know.
People having remorse and regret about deciding not to body feed their babies or deciding to stop body feeding their babies. So just an opportunity. So to witness people. You know, say I see you to say your experience is valid and to connect them to the resources that they might need, that they don't even know that they need, or to help them offer, to offer them some type of ancestral medicine.
Right? Like, because right. Being able to be witnessed is it is an ancestral medicine. It is an opportunity to not pass down some type of something to the next generation in your family. Which is your living children. So yeah,
Sara: [00:44:45] that's such a beautiful gift and I could see how it's going to be so wonderful for those babies to have that, to, you know, to have that the story of their birth, I think, to have that [00:45:00] recorded or documented in some way, and for breathing people to be able to.
, reflect and maybe rewrite their story
Davinah: [00:45:09] idea. Yeah. I'm really hoping that it I think the biggest intention behind it is to continue to honor birth sovereignty. And to continue to really to normalize birth and to help people continue to understand the, like how profound witnessing.
Really is how healing, how healing witnessing is how redemptive witnessing is like, I think this is a space where we are, we're abandoning our community members in, in really hard ways. So, yeah.
Sara: [00:45:45] Okay. I love that. I want to circle around to how did you come up with the questionnaire? Like for the dialogue thinking of.
For breathing people or mama's for them to kind of, [00:46:00] how did you come up with that idea and come up with that flow and yeah. Like where did that come from?
Davinah: [00:46:08] So, I remember my first year,
then I was like, Holy . Like this is Holy . Postpartum is, is not something to with. Like, this is not something to be under prepared for. And I remember. My whole world as a doula being flipped upside down with that information that we got there, like that, that training experience.
And I remember one thing specifically, I had a meeting with a client after that retreat that we went to and I was like, I cannot cover all of this. I can't cover all of this. I can't assume people know this and I can't assume that they don't. And so I have a background in facilitating and education.
And so I, and I worked with college students for 10 years. And I'll tell you [00:47:00] what college students are just like expecting parents. None of them listen. None of them listen to you. None of them read your email. None of them read your emails, none of them follow directions. And they just are. They just think that they're going to go into life.
With everything they have right now. And I'm like, it doesn't work like that. So I felt like I needed to give my clients a tool that would help them. Have conversations with each other. Because what I was also finding was that the pregnant person was paying attention and the non-pregnant person was not like, okay, the pregnant person needs you to listen and you to show up and you to answer questions and answer the hard questions like this is a, this is a partnership.
If they have a partner, like this is a partnership and you are going to be the person that the mental load and everything in the house. Falls to when that burning person is in the bed, taking care of themselves and the [00:48:00] baby and not you anymore. And so it felt really important to be able to stimulate that part of their dynamic or like, and be like, you need to have this conversation yourself because you're going to be having lots of hard conversations when your baby comes out and you're tired and you're going to be having lots of conversations about what to do, and you might not have answers.
And so why don't we help you get these answers now and prepare as much as we can now? So that this doesn't have to be like you with one boob out on the couch crying and your baby's crying and you don't know who to call to help you. Like, why don't we just save you that step?
Sara: [00:48:40] That's beautiful.
Davinah: [00:48:42] And totally. So I think it was really born out of frustration. Like I have all of this information and you don't even know how, I don't even know how to give it all to you, but also like I, not the answer to your postpartum experience you are and [00:49:00] like how seriously take this.
And for some of the communities that I support, they don't know, they don't have the language around some of this stuff. They don't have the time to be thinking about it because they're surviving. Yeah. And so it, I think it affords everyone that I work with the opportunity to focus on what scares them the most focused on what feels the most important to them when they read the things in that document.Marker-quote
And then also for them to continue to understand the enormity of what it means to bring a life into the world. And so yeah, I made that form and I send it to all of my families and it's the, we spent two hours talking about it. Usually some of my families, we spend less time because they've gone through it and they've really worked at it.
Like they they've talked about things like their answers. I'm like, Oh wow. Okay.
And other people are like, we wanted to go through this with you. Cause we don't know any of this shit. We don't know what we would do for any of it. So it has been another [00:50:00] tool for them to, to really feel empowered and for them to really understand or have some semblance of understanding of the enormity of this process.
Sara: [00:50:08] . I'm curious. I saw, I see on your website. I just want to point listeners there. Cause I feel like for for. People who are about to give birth. I feel like there's a lot of really great resources just in thinking about navigating hospitals during the time of COVID. I thought you had some really rich resources there.
And I see also that you're offering mentorships to other doulas and curious, like what that could look like or who like, who. Are you wanting to call in for that experience?
Davinah: [00:50:48] I'm really glad that you asked that question. I think that's a really, it's a really thoughtful question. So starting with the mentorship I'm looking for people I'm looking to mentor the people that I'm supposed [00:51:00] to.
I only will, I'm only taking two to three people at a time. And I envision these relationships being a year long to really help people. The beginnings of doula work are really clunky. They're really awkward. You're very critical of yourself because you're working with people and you don't want to make mistakes.
But it's also a really profound time to call in who you want to work with as a doula. So really giving people opportunities to have a space, to process like any kind of birth that they've gone to. Just to listen again, not to be a therapist, but to just listen and hold space. But also to help people understand.
Stand their own communities, birth culture, because I think that like, I live in a place where the birth culture here is very forward moving. There are a lot of resources and then there are other communities where there are none. And so helping people navigate either the desolate spaces that you know, their communities have or helping them navigate the rich spaces that they're afforded with that privilege.
So I prioritize working with [00:52:00] black and indigenous. Doulas. But we'll work with other people if it's a good fit and if they're ready to do the work. But I really want to help people who are in this work to support their communities and those communities being those communities that are marginalized Yeah.
So that's what mentorship looks like to me, it looks like a committed relationship. Like it's not just something where like we check in like, you know, once a month, like we're talking every week and I'm challenging you and asking you important questions and you are challenging me. Because I think that also like mentorship is it's, it's a reciprocal relationship.
I really believe that what you give you get. And so I want my mentees to push on me and I want them to, you know, teach me and so it's not, you know, I think that that's, I think it's really important. And I think and so that's something that I, I also, I want to support [00:53:00] and mentor people who have that spirit about them.
Marker-quoteBecause I think we need more people in this world who know that it's okay to push on people who are teaching you, that's really important to you. So,
Sara: [00:53:09] That's such a beautiful reminder and I feel like it's very counter to how I was raised as a
Davinah: [00:53:18] yeah, totally.
Sara: [00:53:20] It's like more, it's just more. It just feels like things can evolve if we are questioning each other.
You know, if it's not just a one-way street where like there's a teacher who like gives you the knowledge, it's like, it's a dialogue, it's a, it's a bouncing back and forth. And so I love that idea of creating a little bit more play intention and accountability and Yeah. Evolution in the, and depth in the relationship, because I think when there isn't questioning and there's, you're [00:54:00] not getting as much depth, you have to have the questions to like get into the dirt.
Davinah: [00:54:05] Definitely. 100%. Yeah.
Sara: [00:54:08] I love that. You're doing that.Marker-cut for audience
Davinah: [00:54:10] I'm really actually more interested though in creating some more workshops around grief for people. I am, I'm looking to create workshops for those who are grieving their mothers, because my mother is no longer living. And navigating what that means, because Marker-quote postI think when you lose your mother, No matter how complex your relationship was or how wonderful your relationship was.
It is a it is a mountain that has always been there that is suddenly not there anymore. So like, when you imagine, like maybe there's a tree you see every day when you leave your house or there's a mountain in the distance that you see every day, imagine one day waking up and going outside and it's just gone.
We orient ourselves to, to those things, right. To those things that are just always there. And so [00:55:00] helping people navigate that grief and community in a, again, not a therapist, but in a way of helping community witness community. I also would love to I really want to write more, you know, I really, I love writing and Oh, thank you.
I, I really enjoy it. And it gives me, it gives so much to me. Like, I, I really enjoy sharing my writing, but writing gives me so much, it gives me so much. So much source, like, I feel like so resourced when I write,
I want to write more and I don't know. I don't know if that means writing for other people or just writing for myself, but yeah. I want to write more about what it has meant to witness people in birth and write more about what it has meant to witness people in postpartum and write more about what it has meant to witness people who've experienced loss in pregnancy or who have chosen to terminate pregnancy.
So [00:56:00] there's a lot there. Like I think I've had a really magical three and a half, four years of this work that has given me. So much to write about yeah,
Sara: [00:56:12] I feel like there's like 87 books. They're like, okay. How a partner could have a conversation with another partner.
And make it work better. Yeah. For books, I feel like I could see you writing from this, this rich experience of doula, doula, hood, and witness holding and, and the experience of losing your
Davinah: [00:56:38] mother and just,
Sara: [00:56:40] yeah. You just had so many rich experiences and are reflective of them and, you're thoughtfully looking at your experiences.
Davinah: [00:56:53] Yeah. Yeah. And there's also been a really beautiful way for me to process what [00:57:00] it means, like the emotional impacts of supporting people in birth and in postpartum, because it is that is the thing that I think a lot of. You know, a lot of us who go into this work don't realize is that, like, we don't just leave these people at the bedside and say like, I'll check on you in a couple of days.
Like we bring them home with us. And we bring that energy home with us. And so sometimes that's a way of me saying like, thank you no longer mine. Like, thank you. You are no longer with me. Thank you. Like, I am detaching from you because I really do believe in the power of energy and sometimes I feel like I bring people home with me, so yeah.
Sara: [00:57:40] Do you go home and then you write a little bit, or do some journaling to help release because I can feel that. Yeah, just the chords are like, how do I cut this core? Like, I need to just like go
Davinah: [00:57:54] sometime, you know, I don't come home and right when I come home from a birth, I go straight to the [00:58:00] shower and I, especially as a COVID like I, my, my partner and I have this routine now where I strip, I take all my clothes off at the door and put them in the washing machine.
And like, he keeps the dog away from me. Cause my dog loves to say hi to me. As soon as I come in the house and I go straight to the shower. And after I did that, I remember in August or no September, I did that after a 55 hour birth. And. I wasn't there for the whole 55. I was like coming and going. I'm trying to take care of myself, but it was long for me too.
But I remember being like, I have to wash this off of me because not only did I watch this amazing person push this amazing human out of their body And witness like some really cool portal shit. Like it was a really cool birth in that way, too. Like, it was fucking fucking wild, but I was also like, [00:59:00] you know, when, when the birthing person looked at me at one point and said, I think I love you.
Okay. Like, she's like holding her baby on her chest and she's looking at me and she's like, I've got hard eyes for you. Like. You bring that home with you. And sometimes you, you bring that with you and you bring, it creates this feeling of obligation to people. And it created, hits this place in us where we feel like I can not fail you no matter what.
And so I have to sometimes go into the shower and just like, imagine all of those contracts that I've signed, you know, like energetic contracts that I signed with people going down the drain. Because at the end of the day, like I am, but a vessel I am, but my own human in this black ass body who , who is primary function, unfortunately every day is about surviving and not being harmed.
And so. My ritual around showering is, is, is that to help [01:00:00] me remind me that my energy belongs to me. And no matter how much I love my clients, cause I really fucking love them. And there are some clients that I really fucking love. Like we have, we have been through some shit,
Yeah. Yeah. It's really beautiful. But yeah. So a lot of the times when I write all of that to say, I'm sorry that it's such a long answer. I don't know. A lot of the times when I write, I mean, it just comes. It, it, it just like appears, it, it I don't know how to describe it, but it almost feels like something's knocking on my forehead and it's like, Hey, I need you to write this down and I'll start writing it.
And then it just keeps coming and coming and coming and coming, and then there's a post on Instagram and that's it. And that, that is also why I, I don't. I'm not one of those people. Who's like I have to post every week or every day or whatever. Like I post I post when I want to post and I share when I want to share.
But I am feeling more and more called away from Instagram. [01:01:00] I'm feeling more and more like I want to honor my writings and Instagram feels like such a temporary space and it also feels like it feels fake. It doesn't feel real. It doesn't feel it. Sometimes I don't feel like Instagram is worthy of what those words hold like, and I'm not just talking about my writing or trying to like, you know, inflate myself, but more of like, I feel like when I write, like, it feels right.
Like a really I'm honoring the majestic part of myself. And I don't feel like Instagram can hold majesty. I don't feel like Instagram is a space to hold the sacred. I feel like it is, you know,
Sara: [01:01:37] totally agree. Like I, I put stuff on there, but it's very, like, I keep it light. I don't know. Give it like depth really?
It's just like, okay, this here's a little surface, something, but like ever like mine, the depths for Instagram. Totally. I don't know where [01:02:00] things belong. . I do morning pages. So I just like wake up and I just make coffee and I write three pages every day. It's not good writing, but like, it just feels so good.
It's just like, I have to do it.
But yeah. Yeah. I don't know if, yeah, that's an interesting idea. Maybe it could live on your website or have a different website or make a book.
Davinah: [01:02:25] I don't know. Yeah. You're not the first person who says you need to make a book. I just, you know, I've I've, there are so many.
There's so many things. But I've been thinking about, I've been thinking about it. I don't know, but yeah. That's where my writing comes from and I am more and more attracted to writing about grief and writing about death and birth and loss. Because that just feels so in my space, like it feels so like where I am and where I want to be.
Like, I want to linger in that, in the space of life and death and in the space of [01:03:00] grief and loss, because I think it's what, it's what shapes us like those, those are the things that shape us. And I am, I am really enamored with that right now. So. Mm.
Marker death doula workSara: [01:03:14] Yeah, that's beautiful. Do you, have you gotten into desk doula work at all?
Cause I could see some of that kind of coming in
there.
Davinah: [01:03:25] Yeah. So I I'm, I'm actually on the board for an end of life care training organization. And we're a community end of life care community group based in Seattle. And it's called a sacred passing and it is like, One of my favorite things that I do right now, I've taken the two death doula training courses with them.
And I, and I have, I have attended I'm more interested actually in doing death doula work with people who are birthing, so lost [01:04:00] support abortion support. And helping people, giving people do birth and death doula support. When they know that they're going to give birth to a baby who will not live long.
And that started in may of 2019 when I supported a family who their baby had a condition called trisomy 13. And he was not expected to live and. We knew that. And so I supported them in their birth. And then they had a friend who was a death doula who supported them on the end of taking care of all of the things that happen after your baby does and making sure that they had time with him.
So they had a couple of days where they got to have him in their room. His body was. Connect cold with ice packs and people got to hold him and I got to hold him. And he lived for I don't want to share their whole story, but he lived for 30 minutes after he was born. And he. Yeah, that experience changed me.
And you [01:05:00] know, I had lost my mom two years before that or a year before that. And so I had experienced death, very close to me, but to experience death, where there was new life and like new life was just born and then died was like such a reminder that this happens. Like it was such a reminder that life is not promised to us in any form for any length of time.
And that we, we make a lot of plans. But we don't make plans for how we're going to die and we don't make plans for our death.
And very shortly after, like I was, I was getting connected to, to a sacred passing and Figuring out how to witness and support people in the birth and death space, because birth and death are the same. Yeah, they both take take some time. You never know when it's going to happen. You can't make predictions, you can't control it.
We can influence birth and death, but we can't control it.
[01:06:00] Sara: [01:05:59] Yeah. Well, I've told him that I just want to talk to him for like 600 years. Respect your time. Cause I think it's been like almost two hours, but I, is there anything else coming through that you want to be sure to share?
Davinah: [01:06:14] Hmm. I think the one thing I would say is like for people who are looking for places to donate their money or donate their time a sacred passing is an incredible organization.
It's a sacred passing.org and you can also follow them on Instagram at a sacred passing. It's an incredible organization to give to donate funds to we work from an anti-racist. Lens of training end of life caregivers on how to care for anyone and help anyone die well. And to understand the different systems people have to navigate in order to die well.
So if you'd like to donate money, they're great. I also have a fund and it is the black birthing bodies fund. You can find it on my website, www dot board, rooted.com. And it is A fund that I started to support those [01:07:00] in my community who can't afford doula support and we can't afford lactation support.
So this fund goes directly to those in my community to give free birth support, free lactation support, to pay for lactation consultant visits for anybody in a black birthing body who comes to my care. So If that's another place people want to donate, that's another option. But I just really believe strongly in continuing to sow our resources into the future and to continue to sow our resources into people's and other life as well.
So yeah, I think that the only other thing I would say is continue to do. The work around what it means to be. You continue to deconstruct yourself, continue to deconstruct your mind and the messages that you've received in your life continue to deconstruct your privilege and then do something about it.
So those are the things that I would say.
Sara: [01:07:53] Oh, so beautiful.
Thank you again so much for making time tonight.
Davinah: [01:07:59] Thank you [01:08:00] so much, Sarah., hope it's a wonderful night and a good week.
Sara: [01:08:04] Same for you. Okay. You too. Bye honey.